um good evening everyone welcome to the
second work session of the city council
for january 2022
as a reminder this is a work session
where the public does not have an
opportunity to get engaging questions to
the council
tonight's discussion
is going to focus on the fire
commissioner's request to purchase a new
ladder truck
this item was originally on the agenda
for the january 18 city council meeting
but it was
pulled leading up to that meeting and
through today the council
has had two to three dozen related
questions
almost all of which are in a 39 page
plus
powerpoint presentation that
commissioner miller will walk us through
this evening
i want to take this opportunity to thank
the commissioner and his staff for their
many many hours of work on this
recommendation
tonight's discussion will inform the
council as it does its job to make sure
that we are getting the best truck for
the city city's needs at the best price
based on what i know as of tonight
the discussion will primarily focus on
why we need a new ladder truck
what was the process to identify the
recommended truck
what are all the factors that should be
considered for such a purchase
the council may defer or ask for input
from other city staff during tonight's
meeting
with that i will turn it over to
commissioner miller
all right thank you uh can you hear me
yes we can
okay great uh
dave whenever you're ready if you want
to start it i'll uh present the uh
the presentation that we made
the next step
next okay
in long beach we have 61 high-rise
buildings eight of them are over seven
stories tolls this includes schools
nursing homes condos hotels and
apartment buildings
after super storm standing many homes in
long beach went from one stories to
three-story houses
long beach is a barry island that we all
know and needs to be self-sufficient in
case of bridge failure next
construction the city of long beach is
adding additional multi-story high-rise
buildings for example the super block
located between long beach boulevard and
riverside boulevard and there are more
buildings going up on shore road
next
we're guided by the
nfpa and iso and they stand for the
national fire protection association
which is a national standard
for fire service throughout the country
and the insurance service office which
sets the fire insurance ratings for the
residents of long beach
next
and the iso and fpa uh identify as low
hazard areas which would be one or two
story
uh dwellings
scattered businesses
like industrial occupancies it's a
smaller scale
you need two pumpers one ladder truck
and other vehicles next
a medium hazard area would be apartments
offices uh mercantile industrial
occupancies for that you would need
three engines and one ladder truck
next
long beach falls into the high hazard
area which you have multiple apartment
buildings nursing homes hotels condos
schools
for that you need three pumpers and two
ladder trucks with other vehicles in the
department next
so with that for long beach we
definitely need to have our two ladder
trucks in service
at both all times
um
these are recommendations based on both
nfpa and iso next
we uh
are recommending as the fire department
that the city enter an agreement to
purchase the new ladder truck
at the cost of 1.769
million to replace the existing ladder
truck we have
next
why do we need the truck do we really
need to replace the current one can we
lease or buy a used ladder truck
next
as you can see the picture here this is
our firehouse uh during super storm
standy at headquarters
this is where it's elevated a little bit
so
the trucks going out into the streets
are a little bit further underneath the
water
next so why our current truck has
outlived its usefulness while most fire
operators last
around 20 years based on the use the
damage to the truck during hurricane
irene and super storm standing has
accelerated the decline of the truck's
serviceability
now we've experienced a high average of
downtime in the last five years the
lighter truck's been out two of those
years
awaiting repairs or indoor parts
is it going to keep costing this city
money to stay in service
we've spent over 300 000 so far keeping
this truck going
um we're getting near the end where
it'll keep costing us more and more to
keep going forward
next
um during mayor of 2021 the senior
mechanic at the city garage advised
the truck company members along with the
chiefs that they should start looking to
purchase a new ladder truck sooner
rather than later because the damages
needed repair was increasing
as was the overall cost to keep the
truck in service
in consideration of these looming repair
issues the committee was formed by the
chiefs and truck company members
in december of 2021 the final design
with specifications made
for a replacement ladder truck
next
the idea of purchasing a used ladder
truck
where most fires last which i'm sorry
most fire apparatus lasts between 20 25
years depending on location of use and
how many alarms they respond to in our
city we try to get 20 years for each
piece of apparatus but sometimes
for example irene sandy damage happens
that decreases the serviceability of an
apparatus
attempting to purchase to use lighter
truck would mean it's probably been used
to its potential
and for a high response area like long
beach the ladder truck would
not last the time frame we wouldn't need
it for it would cost the city additional
funds to maintain and have to eventually
replace it
next
uh what type of lag truck should we
purchase the committee developed the
pros and con lists to reach the
manufacturers they looked at
most of the manufacturers did not offer
a truck with a ladder long enough to
reach the upper floors of current
buildings in the city and other
companies had trucks that waited too
long in length to get down the blocks
like the canals president streets
and the one ways in the west end
next
uh some of the manufacturing pros uh for
the pierce was an 18 month manufacturing
time it was a shorter truck to fit in
the streets
it would be developed with saltwater
protection
larger variety of
warranties
and pricing was better
and then manufacturing service count
centers are on long island
um for the ferrara the pros were they
had 105 foot ladder and it was more
compartment space the sea grave was just
a compartment space
and the rosenbauer was 18 months
manufacturing with a larger cab
next some of the cons that we uh faced
was for the piers that had less
compartment space
for the ferraris decrease in
reputability and a decrease in quality
for the sea grave it was a longer truck
three year delivery date and 1.5 million
starting price without adding anything
extra to it
rosenbauer the ladder was too short
uh 88 feet parts are not readily
available
as a foreign manufacturer and there's
only one other department in nasa that
actually has a truck from rosenbauer
um and the truck itself would be
longer than what we were looking for
next
why right now
as a result of the extensive work done
by the committee last fall they were
able to secure extremely competitive
pricing
trade-in value
that we were hoping to get for the truck
is between two and two hundred and fifty
thousand
the light the price of the ladder truck
and all of its components will increase
by 15 over 100 thousand dollars if the
agreement's not reached by the end of
the month
not only could the overall price be
withdrawn from the offer
but any incentive set forth in the offer
are also subject to change if we do not
accept
next
was this why wasn't this equipment
already requested in prior capital plans
this equipment was not identified to be
replaced in recent capital plan
submissions
prior prior capital plan submissions
were made by the bomb in projecting
future needs as an example
in 2012 prior to uh
super storm standi
the new engine we we had put in for a
new engine in capital project uh for
2018-19
the condition of this ladder truck has
been deteriorating over the years but
dramatically starting the last two years
department is attempting to be proactive
in identifying the future needs of the
department
next
why did we go it appears
the ps offered the fastest of best
quality turnaround time
pierce owns
oshkosh defense which is contracted
through the i'm sorry oshkosh defense
owns pierce which is contracted through
defense production act which allows the
materials before the manufacturing
company they get it first
they have better warranties they have
three service centers on long island
and the one that we suspect that would
fit the streets of long beach the best
next
uh was the board of fire commissioners
involved in selection this ladder
apparatus
the truck committee was established and
consisted of senior members from the
company
throughout the truck building process
the committee was in constant contact
with the chief's office and the city
garage advising them of the progress of
the truck
fire commissioners were notified of the
truck's progress and the commission was
notified upon completion of design
next as a model of the pierce apparatus
been inspected tested or so when and by
whom
in september of 2021 firemax supply
company was able to
bring down a demo truck to long beach
for the committee to look at and check
out
the truck was
driven up and down the tight streets
throughout the city some members you can
see how it performed
members were able to uh to see all the
various controls compartments camp space
and decide what worked and did not work
for the city of long beach
the truck committee was able to look at
a variety of current in-service pierce
ladder trucks across long island
north belmore in october of 21 the
company was able to
go check out the truck where they had
their own
dedication ceremony
rosalind had one in july of 2021 north
america october 21 lindenhurst in
january 22. next
[Music]
so what is their experience with it
currently on long island there are a
hundred of these i'm sorry there are ten
of these trucks and services an
additional five on order the committee
spoke with four of these departments
asking many questions about their likes
and dislikes the committee was able to
ascertain information such as not to go
with detroit diesel engine
because rosalind found it needed
regeneration too frequently
when speaking with noah belmore the
department informed our truck committee
they did not like to roll down
compartment doors because they stick
from time to time
next
the proposal says it's being purchased
under hcac contract fs 12-19 item fs19va
09.
the 09 is for a ps arrow the resolution
was to purchase the pierce enforcer
uh the contract the 09 is the base miler
type of cab that is offered by pierce
as an add-on option for the truck
committee decided
it would best to go with the velocity
cab as it offers more room for cab in
the cab for members
the velocity does not have its own item
number on the vs 12-19
next
the contract price for the 09 is 1.3
million the price resolution is 1.7
why is there a difference
on the contract the price is 1.3 and
this is the base price
adding to the contract there's multiple
services testing treatments by the deal
over the next five years
also included is tool mounting delivery
feed inspection trips out to the factory
and tools are being purchased with the
truck
next
uh the 09 is the most expensive ps
aerial listed in the hgac contract
the most expensive option selected
under the hgc contract pearson forces
are less expensive
than pierce arrows
the only the r09 is the only mid-mount
100 foot ladder listed on the hgac
contract the pierce enforcer that is
three hundred thousand dollars cheaper
is a hundred and ten rear mount tower
ladder
on the hundred and seven rear mount
tower ladder
or the i'm sorry or the 107 remote tower
ladder which is two different trucks if
mid mount is shorter in length and
height
which is what the committee is looking
for
the resolution had a typo it should have
stated pierce velocity volumatic supply
company has corrected the contract and
is attached
and sent over next
according to the proposal sheet
the engine is a 605 horsepower cummings
x15 engine
per the pierce website the engine
options reinforcer are cummings l9 x12
or
the paccar mx13 with engine horsepower
370 to 525
there is no 605 horsepower engine option
listed out for the enforcer the x15 is
an engine option on the arrow not the
enforcer
parts of the pierce website have not
been updated since december of 19th
including the link
to pierce website for the velocity cab
which is the cab the committee has
decided to go with under engines it
states the cummings x-15 engine next
we are a two-square mile city with flat
terrain why does the apparatus need the
highest horsepower most expensive engine
option available
the cab is a velocity and not any of the
other types listed this is reflected in
the bid spec and line item skus the
actual engine in the specification is
the cummins x15 pro
that has the horsepower specifications
to match what's in writing the apparatus
is very heavy the largest engine is
normally
specked on an aerial device
it was done on both the current ladder
tower we have and the 91 pure slider
which we had before
hills would strain an engine more but
even getting the opera is moving without
taxing the engine to redline on flat
ground requires the larger engine
next
during our research we were informed by
each of the departments that
have this truck and put a smaller engine
in it have not been happy with the
decision more importantly the city
garage senior diesel mechanic
recommended the bigger engine
the truck committee worked very closely
with the city garage to make sure
everything mechanical in the truck can
be easily maintained by the garage in
the first year maintenance warranties
are up this prolongs the life of the
truck
next
the proposal includes equipment that
goes on the fire truck ladders pipe
poles extinguishers is this standard
equipment is included with the purchase
of the fire truck or are they add-ons
if an add-on is the new equipment needed
it may make sense to replace old
equipment with the purchase of the new
truck
but
if it is an extra cost is the equipment
currently on hand in need of replacement
normally a new truck has a lot of new
equipment that comes with it because of
the equipment is currently in service or
is outdated or over 20 years old in this
case the truck committee went through
all the equipment is currently in
service and wrote down items we needed
to purchase with the truck
this included battery-powered fans
battery-powered lights a thermal imaging
camera ladders radios for the truck
itself
these battery-powered items are needed
as the new truck will not have a
generator or power wheels in it on it
for an effort to cut costs on the truck
next
the rest of the equipment
scba packs saws ropes hand tools
other miscellaneous things will be
transferred over from the current truck
this helps cut costs on the overall
truck price
many of our current ground ladders are
in poor shape
there are two major aluminum ladder
brands and used for the fire service the
brand we have is not what the
manufacturer uses or designs for
we are able to accommodate more ground
ladders into the new truck by going with
the offered brand of ladders next
one of the reason one of the reasons
listed for selecting the pierce truck is
shorter
in both length and height than the
current truck length and height were
used as cons on the other models in the
comparison but as an example kme makes a
fire truck that's even shorter than the
piers
also with the 100 foot platform this is
not to say kme is a better option but
their websites say they offer the
shortest wheelbases overall lengths and
lowest heights
in the industry yet they would they were
not evaluated
the comparisons were not a comprehensive
list of what's out there but rather a
sampling
the committee and the company first
decided
on larger issues such as a mid-mount
vs rear mount design and the length of
the aerial device
once the type and sign was
size was established the committee
evaluated apparatus
that met that specification
manufacturers were then eliminated based
on the criteria and also general
feedback from the fire service community
the kme was evaluated
while they currently offer a shorter
truck you must sacrifice the overall
length of the ladder 16 feet shorter
than what the ps offers
next
directly from the kme website the new
mid mount aerial cat is now available
with an 80 foot and 102 foot platform
these two replace the existing line of
81 95 and 100 foot then mount platforms
with a longer horizontal and vertical
reach and a shortened overall length the
102 foot mid-mount
aerial cab platform is
a
two-foot rate increase vertical height
to 102
and a three-foot horizontal increase
horizontal reach height to 94.
the apparatus overall length is
decreased by two feet using
uh the mfd cab a 46 foot overall
length is achievable
the 80 foot mid mount platform rated
vertical height is increased by three
feet to 84 and the horizontal reach is
extended four foot to 77. the vehicle
overall length of the 84 mid mile
platform is just 43 feet
next
pierce also offers the largest scrub
area out of all the manufacturers at 55
degrees they also have the shortest
length to get below grade 20 feet which
is a must when dealing with taxpayer
fires on beach street
next
thomasnet a reference source for
findings equipment suppliers list 10 of
the largest u.s fire apparatus
manufacturers
some of the largest manufacturers
uh are not included on the comparison
list they offer they all offer options
with 100-foot platforms which is what
our department wants
why weren't these options looked at
spartan and marion did not make the
entire truck they used third-party
ladders and not of the design we agreed
upon after much discussion
both within the company and the
committee
suffern is a trust box boom tower
ladder and not a ladder tower meaning
you cannot climb up and down the ladder
while it's extended
they are not a popular truck in our area
with very few in service point lookout
has won and have not been fully happy
with it next
the comparison sheets list a con for e1
as the ladder is only 95 feet
e1 has options with ladders up to 137
feet
longer than other manufacturers and is
three and a half feet shorter than the
piers
seven and a half feet shorter than the
current ladder truck rose obama was also
disqualified because the ladder truck
was only 88 feet sorry the ladder itself
is only 88 feet rows and bound platforms
go up to 104.
the information on the comparisons sheet
seems to conflict with the
manufacturer's information on the
websites
the e1 being mentioned is not an aerial
platform but a straight ladder the
vehicle we are
specifying is a ladder tower which is a
full aerial ladder with a bucket basket
at the end
this type of apparatus is more versatile
than a straight aerial ladder or a towel
ladder which is a boom box on a bucket
on the end
rosenbound mid-mount aerial ladders are
offered in 75-100 foot aerials with the
requirements the truck committee needed
100 foot and shortest length the ladder
offered by rosenbaum did not meet this
as the truck needed to be over 48 feet
in length to accommodate the 100 foot
aerial ladder
next
final notes
through the entire process the committee
kept in mind that the price would be the
biggest concern that the city had with
this picture
with this purchase
with that in mind the committee made a
truck that would be versatile functional
and provide the best services to the
city and its residents
the committee came to myself with a
truck in price and at that time i asked
them to trim back some items on the
truck to reduce the price further
the first quote was higher we were able
to reduce the price
by approximately two hundred thousand
dollars from the original quote
next
any further questions
oh
i'm sorry
the pierce truck that we put together
peer structure we put together has the
shortest overall length in height while
still having a ladder that is 100 foot
tall vertical 93 foot horizontal with a
below grade reach of
20 degrees
truck also has the largest scrub area
like we said at 55 degrees so the
manufacturer pierced off of the shortest
tail swing turning
one half feet off the rear
and that should be it
right um thank you commissioner miller
um i had two quick very quick questions
because i am not an expert in fire uh
apparatus um what is the scrub area
the scrub area is like to the sides of
the truck so if the ladder extends out
and
going to the sides either way it can go
up and go down that would be the scrub
area where the ladder goes
okay
and uh what is a tax payer pay or fire
a taxpayer is uh the failure term for uh
like a store a storefront oh okay
storefront
okay
very good
and um how long have you been fire
commissioner now
i've been fire commissioner about five
weeks
and um
can you just say how long you are you
know with the
violence
i went
i've been with the fire department for
over
31 years
um
and served as a chief before right
yes i went through the ranks of
lieutenant captain
i was chief uh assistant chief from
2013 to 2017
and 17 to 19 i was chief of department
the first chief right
yes chief of department yes okay all
right
um again thank you for this extensive
presentation um i wanna
um unless anybody has anything else i
wanna open it up to the council members
for questions remember this is an
informative session we're trying to get
understand
why we need this truck and why the
process worked the way it did
and um also let's try to rotate the
questions so that one person doesn't you
know monopolize all the
you time that anyone like to go first
i will no one else will
thank you roy
all right i just have a couple of
questions so there's specifications for
the truck
where can they be found uh
i mean like if you had put it out to bid
for example we would have had a
specification sheet where would the
specifications for this truck be found
right now they were sent to the
committee which was sent to me and then
forwarded on to
the city
um roy i think i think there was a
summary page in some of our in our
packet i was actually trying to find it
during the presentation
um really uh joe
basically it had i think three or four
components the first component was
approximately
the base cost was of a 1.83 million and
then there was a second phase of 199 000
for the published um published costs and
then another 200 for unpublished costs
so i have not seen the specification
sheet that that was in the packet that
we all received rory
that
joe is that right we have a
specification sheet are you i think
you're confusing karen with the options
list
no i'm not there was a summary
that was right around that page done
um it's a summary page that basically
um
it's something it categorized the cost
into three to four main
main um like sub areas
joe do you have that available so you
can put it on the screen
oh i'm just gonna jump parents talking
about that
no it's right around the uh
specification sheets which were like 25
people does anyone have it available now
okay it was in the agenda packet i don't
know if rich has it like i said i've
been trying to find it
rich you have it
thank you
why are you looking joe can you hear me
can you tell me about the warranty is
that a bump in the bumper it's that
all-encompassing i mean a five-year
warranty
yes it's a five-year warranty bump at a
bumper uh the
service centers will cover any problems
that we have it includes uh preventive
maintenance
um if for heaven forbid we have another
issue with a storm and we get salt water
as soon as it happens the truck goes out
it gets cleaned it gets
protection reapplied
um to protect it going further
but did that happen to our
ladder that
was caught in sandy
all our trucks caught in sandy were
never really
uh water prepared it was never
constructed like that um
this truck is being constructed with
that in mind so hopefully to deter any
future deterioration if it does go
through water
but we we were insured at sandy
i'm sorry
we were insured all our trucks weren't
sure yes
yes
did that insurance take care of this so
that you know did that insurance
take care of all of the damage
for sandy
it went out and got fixed after sandy
but it's been out multiple times you
know we can fix things with saltwater
damage but ultimately salt one is salt
water is gonna win
it damages things
too much uh you know it's damaged the
frame it's damaged the wiring um things
can be replaced
but not
the whole truck the whole truck really
can't be replaced but then why would why
would insurance try to why would we
accept insurance on something that's
that's fatally damaged rather than
replacement because because at that time
it wasn't fatally damaged they were able
to repair it for us to keep using it and
that's why we've been able to use it for
the last eight nine years
uh
because of all the stuff that was done
usually our trucks last about 20 years
having gone through with all the salt
water and having all this damage it's
just
multiplied throughout the years of how
much worse it's gotten
um if it was a normal
you know truck where with no sandy no
irene
we'd have another uh 10 years out of it
probably
are you trying to commit commissioner
miller are you trying to say that
the damage was intrusive
oh absolutely so there
that truck went through four or five
feet of water
it you know
it can't get more intrusive than that
unfortunately with
with it
i know but that's that's
most of us in long beach had our cards
underwater and most of us had our cars
replaced
you know and that's why i'm kind of
wondering with the insurance
why
the truck wasn't replaced i mean a lot
of what you're saying is the problem
with this truck
is due to sandy
and yet we paid insurance
part of it is due from sandy part of it
is because of all the after effect
afterwards and just wear and tear we're
a busy town with a
lot of runs we go in and out all the
time
donna or ena can you talk about the
insurance process the claim process or
rich that happened here
that would be rich
i understand that we had a
giant inventory i wasn't here actually i
was an intern when sandy happened but
when it all went down
um we took a giant inventory of all the
damage
i believe this office coordinate with a
bunch of other officers to get that
information and we got um
got some pretty quick checks from what i
understand from uh from fema
i was also not
at the city at the time of sandy but
from the documents that i got to review
in connection with all the
other projects that i've worked on it
seems that the city received 10 million
dollars from the insurance company
so there were limits from what i
understand so in this 10 million dollars
were allocated amongst different
projects
at a time
um
so we weren't in short for replacement
value
for the fire department uh yes we had
insurance for the trucks and
we used the insurance money it was put
to fix the trucks
and we were able to get them back on the
road they were out for a while after
sandy we were able to get them back on
the road working uh but
they didn't replace the trucks per se
like the whole thing just the uh to me
but
joe am i
am i wrong in in in
understanding that they didn't replace
the truck enough
so that the the truck was still damaged
from sandy
i mean that's what i'm trying to
understand
when sandy happened we lost three
engines out of the four
those were gone we couldn't use them
afterwards we wound up uh either we
released or we're sorry we rented trucks
or we um i'm sorry engines
uh we rented them and we were somewhat
donated to us that we used for a while
with the ladder trucks
they were able to
do more with them in the sense of
keeping them running and working
but it was again only going to be a
matter of time
before eventually it came to the
breaking point where
the damage from sandy was too much to
continue going forward we wound up
replacing the engines with that
uh because of all that with the
insurance um
but for the latter trucks no they were
able to repair them and keep them going
for a while
but we're at the point now where it's
it's caught up to us so it wasn't
necessarily the replacement value i
think roy is what you're asking instead
we got a patchwork value
yeah well that's that's we weren't in
short for patchwork values that's i
guess that's part of the thing that's
bothering me we were insured to give it
to replace you
uh
and i'm reading from this
that sandy is the biggest cause of us
needing a new fire uh ladder truck right
now and that's why i'm wondering we're
talking
almost two million dollars and we're
insured and we paid a lot of insurance
and i i'm just kind of curious but
anyway
i don't want to monopolize the time john
do you have questions i'll move come
back if i haven't
um i'll i'll just say um you know um
before we move on
i think we we should probably verify the
insurance because roy
um you've made the assertion that we
were verified at replacement value and i
i need substantiation for that
i don't want to have an assertion out
there without making sure we uh check
the facts
just what i have um is the insurance is
able to write 70 of the book value of
the truck
so the damage would need to be more than
70 for the value to replace it
so the engines were more than the 70
percent and the lattice probably were
not over 70 at the time and that's why
they continue to uh repair them
and
keep it going
typically what you're saying is when
your car gets evaluated when it gets
into an accident if it's not totaled out
it just gets repaired under the policy
so that sounds like we need some you
know we should probably clarify that
instead of assuming
uh assuming something
right that was a great point
i'll check with mr geiger to make sure
he can verify um you know
processing what went down
as far as the documentation um
i found
a document that should be in your
packets i'm going to share my screen
right now um
okay
this one was entitled uh
line item hgac spec final
that's what the pdf doc is
is this what you were referring to uh
council president it's in that same uh
it's in that same packet i can't find
the um there's a summary page which i
thought was after that spec sheet so if
you go to the
just spec sheet itself it should be 155
pages long
the bid spec
i definitely did not get that
wait we all got that
i printed out today 49 pages of
things that are
you know the cab
the height
everything has
a price the oil oil seals
but i also do not see karen what you are
referring to and i've been through this
yeah um it was a summer it was a summary
page
which said 1.3 million and then
you know 199 000
with the 2 000 thing on it it was a 20
karen are you talking about that yes
that's what i'm talking about
oh
that's so that page is that's a contract
pricing sheet that's right
that's not a spec sheet that's not a
spec sheet
right that's a summary of a spec sheet
so basically i'm saying that that
summary
is what
is what you can use to inform the
discussion
as you said you have a 49
page document that
specifies price for each of the
items
this part of the agenda
please you're talking about this right
yeah
that doesn't have prices on it
no
right right
i'm getting a copy of it right now and i
will send it to all of you
so basically what i'm saying is all of
that sheet without the prices is
summarized on the other sheet that john
that you found for me
so if in lac and with that in lieu of
not having the exact pricing
commissioner miller can basically
summarize
each group of what we're each grouping
of what we're getting in each component
but for example how much did the
velocity cab
add on to it
exactly
five thousand
is that what you're getting right now
commissioner miller to send to the
so that council could see those prices
yes i'm getting that the beck itself
okay i'm sorry say that one more time
i'm getting the uh complete
specs for it
okay
and then just go ahead and send that to
the council
please thank you
john you want to
what do you want
i guess i i
can
um
i'd like to give commissioner miller
another second are you are you ready
commissioner miller yes i just sent it
to everyone so they'll get it
hope i hear lots of people
yeah it just came through thank you
all right uh i guess so
i guess like karen stated earlier i'm
not an expert in this area
uh
so
in order
to try to
make sure my questions were valid and
going down the right path
i set up a rather lengthy meeting with
the former
assistant commissioner of bureau of
fleet and technical services for the new
york city fire department
that is the person that bought all the
fire trucks and ambulances for the new
york city fire department
how many years many right uh pretty long
time a long time
uh
so
i just wanted to make sure i was asking
the right questions
so i'm gonna i guess i'm gonna start uh
because i made notes in the slide
presentation
um
so i guess i'll go in that order uh
first
and by the way uh just commissioner i
want to thank you because i'm sure we
drove you nuts with all the questions
we've sent you over the last week and a
half
um
i understand but you know we're trying
to do our due diligence
before we spend you know 1.8 million
dollars
um
so um
i guess uh just a general question so
the paperwork uh we got
said the truck was a uh the truck we're
looking to replace is a 2007 uh ferrara
ladder truck but on the fire
department's website it says the trucks
are 2008. so i just for clarity is it do
you know if it's a seven or an eight
it's an eight it's the other thing the
typo okay so it just might want to fix
that in the paperwork
um
uh so uh on the slide
that had the title houston we have a
prom
it said that in december of 2021 a a
final design with specifications was
made for the replacement uh we had
emailed asking to see the specification
that was put together for the vendor and
i guess you would said that there wasn't
a spec put together
for the vendor uh so i guess
uh
what was put together for the vendor if
a full spec wasn't put together
the committee met after they decided
which truck they were going to go with
they met with the representative
and they went through the whole
specification with him
uh exactly what they were going to go
with and what they were not going to go
with and that's how the specification
that developed what uh came to be
so how do they decide what truck they
want to go with if they don't have a
specification for what their needs are
they went around again like the
presentation said they went around and
checked all different types of apparatus
uh they came to the decision that the
pierce was the one that worked best for
them and then they concentrated on
looking at the pierces
that in and around this area
after they decided yes that's definitely
the truck
they started talking with the
manufacturer firematic supply
and
they sat down with him and they went
through saying
we want a pierce this is the reason why
let's talk about the different options
and that's where they came up with their
specs from because they went through
what type of cab to get uh the the
mid-mount
uh and everything else in between
okay so we kind of
so if i understand correctly rather than
us coming up with the specs of what we
need we came up with a general criteria
of what we think we need
the
consensus at the time was i guess the
peers best met that need and then went
and talked to the pierce dealer and he
said here's the options you would need
to do what you want
would that be a
pretty accurate summary
yes okay were any other vendors
consulted to see if they had trucks that
did
what
the city wanted
when they looked at all the other trucks
that they uh they couldn't find anything
so after reviewing it all they just went
with the uh the pierce
uh okay because as
you know i
sent in some of my questions i found
different information that there were
other companies that made
uh trucks that
did meet that general criteria that uh
for example i guess like again and even
in the presentation here we talked about
the kme truck and i'm not saying that's
the right truck but it still said no the
kme truck
doesn't work because it's got an 84-foot
ladder but then the very next slide you
cut and paste from the kme website which
says no the light is 102 feet
so it would work
so right that but that truck is also six
feet longer the longer the ladder the
bigger no truck isn't that's the thing
that's what i'm saying so
um
like you know i did do the research
that's what i'm saying so i guess um uh
um i'm not saying the pierce isn't the
right truck
i guess uh my my concern is were there
other options that maybe weren't looked
at because
the thought process was they didn't have
what was needed
now they they went through what they
thought were the viable trucks that
might be considered for this area and
they selected the pierce
out of those uh that they reviewed
okay uh about how many calls per year
does that latter truck go on
paul paul i know you're not going to
have all this off the top of your head
i mean
about 1200 okay because i'm guessing
it's 2343 the pay truck that does the
most
runs
well they also go on ems calls right
which the ladder truck doesn't right
right right what about you think it's
probably over a thousand
i would think so
okay uh let's see
uh
also in the presentation it talked about
um
if we don't buy the truck by the uh by
the end of the month
uh
some incentives uh that are set forth in
the offer
may be withdrawn uh i didn't see any
incentives listed in the offer sheet so
what incentives are we talking about
the prices of materials overall will be
going up uh
according to them in february
so the incentive was to purchase it at a
cheaper price instead of delaying
purchase and paying more money
okay so it's just their february first
price increase basically
correct
okay
and those early incentive payments that
would trim down some uh
some of the costs i think you saw that
in one of the offer sheets in the
proposal
all right
[Music]
okay um
john
while you're searching yeah if you've
got questions that pop up as i'm saying
this feel free to jump in
um commissioner i would like to also
thank you where are you there you are um
for your um
for your work and being patient
with uh
with the extreme amount of questions
that we're asking
about this fire truck because we are not
experts
um
we all know firemen i know a lot of
environment in town i know a lot of
firemen at the fdmy
and
it's
when you say when you talk to point
lookout into the other surrounding towns
that they weren't happy
with some of the
trucks that they chose
happy is kind of subjective
is there
did they give any specifics on why they
were not happy
okay which one with the truck
such mechanical issues which took it out
of service
okay
i'm just listening right now to the
committee who's here with me uh one of
them is this i'm sorry commissioner can
you introduce the committee why they're
there please
sure i have joe field teddy reinhard
brian hawkizer and john marino um but
they're the ones that did all the
research they're the ones that went
through everything uh to answer your
question like the sutton
they had a lot of mechanical issues it
was out of service a lot more than we
would like a truck to be
um it was a fleet-wide issue it was a
fleet-wide issue with them total recall
of all their devices not just a specific
vehicle what else would other
departments what was that
there was a fleet issue for the sutton
uh
um that they had recalls for
a lot of their trucks because of
mechanical issues
um
other departments uh some of them was
that they they went with the the lower
engine
uh
and they couldn't get their trucks up to
speed
as quickly as they would like uh
there was issues like that so when they
went around talk to everyone
they get all the pros and cons of what
they did and what they have and that's
what they based a lot of decision off of
just another follow-up question
regarding the ladders
so
you stated that
this
one ladder has been out of service for
of
significant periods of time right over
the last five years for about two years
if
mesh it all together
but then you also said that i don't know
if it's required or suggested that we
have two ladders
yeah it's required uh for insurance
rating and the nfpa standards right so
if we're out of standards do are we
penalized as a city
no when
we're not penalized we do have mutual
aid that comes in
uh
but you know
they come when they can uh we need to
according to what they require of us
have two ladder trucks
now does the ladder truck go out
as you sit on mutual aid
the city of long beach goes to other
towns sometimes when there is
of course in thailand park or to ocean
side
and
okay
liz you know you you really bring up
some great points here because um
it related to that the council really
hasn't seen any performance reports that
i can recall
on them on the from the fire department
on a regular basis so you know maybe
that's something that we could uh
you know think about
to hear that you know
um for a 40 of the time over the past
you know basically 40 of the time this
truck has been out of service
the last five years is
concerning coupled with we actually
don't know this the in service um
percentage of the other truck
ladder truck
so you know how many how often
are we without both truck both ladder
trucks
um luckily we haven't been without both
at the same time we've worked it uh as
best as we can to keep them in service
at least one of them um but the other
truck also is starting to have issues
too we that was just out for the last
was it month and a half
and we just we came back and we had to
put it back out again we just got it
back yesterday when you i'm sorry when
you say you
again this i'm asking questions
just to make
an educated decision
on the truck in general
that this
the city garage is is fixing these
trucks
these ladders are all our fire trucks i
have to say i've never seen a fire truck
at the city garage
the city garage does fix some of the
things on the trucks
most times especially with the lighter
trucks they'll have to be sent out to
the dealers
because they have the professional ones
that work on it all the time
and they'll be the ones fixing them okay
so then our city garage is not working
on the trucks or ladder i have to
think they do
they do they work on the truck
whether it's the trucks or the engine if
it's something minor that they can
handle they do if it's something that's
more involved or they cannot do then
they have to send it out
and that's where it's going to that's
where it cost us more money when it's
sent out
wait um if if if we have a proper
service agreement
it shouldn't cost us to get the
equipment service it shouldn't cost us
anything
correct that's why with the new truck
would have a five-year service agreement
going forward with the new truck for the
next five years it would just go out to
that service center i was like six years
it's a six year thing uh and it is to be
serviced out there by the uh service
center
on long island right
yes they have three locations
biographic has three locations
is that the name of the company
i'm sorry
the firematic company has three
locations is that what you said there's
there's uh they have three locations
there's dealers
one is long island upstate westchester
one's in westchester and one's in
connecticut the main shops they're main
shops where they service the the larger
vehicles
i um
i just wanted to jump in i had a couple
questions about
the uh planning out and um you know and
and again thank you um commissioner for
for your presentation for all the work
that's gone behind this we totally
recognize the need here as folks have
said my my fellow council members have
said we're just really looking for the
right
way you know the the most right to do
for you and and for the residents and
and for the city so thank you um
yes the questions i had are based on you
know options um as well so
when you all were looking at and your
committee was looking at the various
options was there anything put on the
table or looked out for a more scaled
down version perhaps that would enable
the transfer of
current equipment
to the new one i know you expressed a
need and for another one in the future
as well could that be
yeah right a lot of equipment is gut
getting transferred over uh there's only
a few things that are new that are
coming with the
the current the new engine sorry the new
ladder truck
we are we took off the generator
that we have uh on the old truck we're
gonna get battery-powered fans instead
of um where was it teddy what was the
other thing
uh flashlights and
right
there's very little new equipment on
this at all right
very little new equipment i know overall
there is some new stuff uh but it's
minor compared to past years where a lot
more new equipment when they had brought
me the specs i had asked them to trim it
back knowing that it would be an issue
uh
with costs and we were looking to
cut back as much as we could
to make it a viable presentation for the
city
okay and and
it's my understanding please correct me
if i don't have this right and some of
the
things that we've been reading that the
truck wouldn't get here until 2023
right it's about an 18 month turnaround
time so by the time you sign it it'll be
about 18 months before it's built and
then in service here
okay
does that provide room like say for
example
we
you know just i'm just throwing
something out there we missed this
deadline or whatever on the 31st um
would that afford us some time since it
is like a
longer time to look at any other options
in between like
you know how does well it
if you wanted to do that if you wanted
to
take time and not do this now and you
want to take another three months
it would we decide to go with pierce it
would be three months from uh 18 months
from then
if you decide pierce is not the truck we
want and we want to do something excuse
me do something else
we're starting from ground zero again
and
we're gonna go out and spec a truck and
it's gonna take a while to do it and
then from there depending on how long
that company would take to build it
it would go on from there so
guesstimating two years three
two to three years and just my last my
last question and others on here may
know this um
so
it was my understanding also that
this would be tied into the capital
budget versus operational budget and i
just had a concern about that is
has that been
re-examined or is that still the
proposed way
i'm going to have to defer to ena for
that yeah i was going to say ina do you
want to speak on that please
hello good evening um so
i'm sorry tina i want to make sure that
i'm answering the exact um
question
so you were asking uh
about the concerns that it's in a up
capital budget versus operating budget
yes
uh
so
i actually
um
think that it's very important that we
talk about it so we're all on the same
page about
capital versus operating for items of
this magnitude
um so it's about 1.7 1.8 million dollars
purchase
we don't have an operating
budget itself
we don't have funds to buy it outright
right
so it's um we need to buy it
using different kinds of financing right
so
either we buy it by
issuing
bonds
getting money
and paying for it
or we can lease something like that
which is a capital lease and um
we would be paying for it throughout
whatever the term of the lease is with a
dent when we're
paid off
we um the city owned the car
so
both leases and bonds
they have their own pros and cons
and
it's important for the city to at the
time that we actually have to pay for
something like that to evaluate and
quantify exactly
the cost of borrowing through leasing
and the cost of borrowing through
bonding
and um
it could only be done at the time that
we're ready it could be done now but
obviously markets change between now and
the 18 months from now or three years
from now so interest rates on
bonds and interest rates on leases
uh will change from now to then and um
we would we would need to do this kind
of analysis
at that point
um so i'm sure that everybody knows uh
what um
look
okay
i didn't realize my video was not
working um so
uh both leases and bonds have their pros
and cons
um so a lease is an obligation that's
secured by leased equipment so basically
until we're p
totally for the equipment
lease company or financing company owns
that asset not the city
um
we have to the city has to do an um
annual appropriation
meaning that every year
um city council has to approve amounts
needed to pay down that lease
um
it does not require credit rating
um it's a subject to a period of um
probable usefulness so
um usually this company would not lease
you something for 20 years if they think
that the normal uh useful life of an
asset is 10 right
um
rates tend to be higher than bonds on
leases
i'm sorry um
i'm done done would you be able to
summarize
so i think if i want to make sure i
understand your question correctly um
whether we're going to do a capital
lease
or whether we're a bond we really can't
say at this point we will do whatever is
best for the city once we know that it
is ready the idea of putting in
operating is that if we have a lease
then we put the lease payments within
the operating budget um every year um
however many years at least tells us
that you know if it's a five-year lease
or ten year lease
if it's a bond that means that it turned
out to be much cheaper for us to bond
the money but when we bonded it still
has to be paid back over the useful life
of the assad
so we really can't say whether it will
be capital or um
whether it be capital operating we're
just going to do the best that we can do
we also have time to look at grants and
look at other funding sources
in the meantime while we're trying to
get the uh fire while we're waiting for
the fire truck to come so we're looking
at money everywhere we're looking we're
going to look for money everywhere right
yeah so just um
i guess for some clarity here
then if we approve the purchase of the
truck we are obligating ourselves
financially to this purchase
without
knowing how we're going to pay for it
yet is that correct that's correct
okay is that
is that an acceptable practice can we do
that
well you can
rich you want to answer that because you
can say we're going to bond the truck
and that at the time it comes if we can
lease it we can lease it at a better
rate
i mean the concern is let's say it goes
into the capital
the general practice and recommendation
on large purchases like this right is to
or what we've done is we pair a
resolution like this with the purchase
of equipment simultaneously with a
publication of a bond ordinance right
what that bond ordinance does right is
authorizes the council the city to bond
it a future date it's not the bond
itself but it at least
gives the gives the city the opportunity
to bond for it if that's the best
possible route in the bond ordinance
itself you'll find that there's some
flexibility in the bond ordinance which
allows for
funding through maybe um
through grants if we find a grant
right and we don't have to bond for it
the other alternative that you know kind
of touched on is the finance and lease
aspect of it
so
the best practice john is to is to
or the common practice is to authorize
the bond simultaneously with the
equipment purchase so that practice yes
would be to have a bond authorization
because that would allow for payment in
any course
uh would we choose to buy it or now or
later
and if um
if and one we have to pay for it
the city always evaluates best way to
to finance it
and the and the major distinction she
kind of touched on it touched on a
moment ago was difference between
leasing and bonds right bonds is a
general pledge of money so it's
guaranteed full faith and credit and
your lease is basically all right if you
miss a payment or if a subsequent
administration fails to appropriate
funds for it the truck gets repo it's
basically a security interest on the
truck
so um
that those are those are some of the
things that she that she clarified in
that in that little
presentation
so along the lines procedurally then
uh i guess i got along those lines is so
um
so we're buying this under basically a
houston
city of houston contract
this hgac
and the item this
fs19va09 as we said earlier in the
presentations for pierce arrow
though the resolution said it was for an
enforcer and now we're finding out it's
actually a velocity
um
what i i guess what i need clarity on is
if this contract is to buy a pierce
enforcer that's what the contract
authorizes purchase of how can we buy a
different fire truck
under that contract
i think the bid document itself is is a
cooperative purchasing program like
that's how the bid was put out so you
have approved vendors for a particular
type of vehicle or make
and with a particular make you'll have a
bunch of different models in that make i
think that's how the that's how the um
the houston
houston galveston i got i got them got
them all here
right right i believe the mistake also
was corrected too
like they resent over the adjusted uh to
say the velocity
no no that may be true but what i'm
saying is if they're buying it under
fs19va09 that's for
uh
that's for an arrow
so i guess my question is how are we
buying a velocity
under a contract for an arrow
did you just say joe the commissioner
that they corrected that that was
corrected last week it was sent over
again and it
was it's had the uh philosophy is an
add-on can i explain can i i'm gonna
have one of these
i think i know i think i got so your
contract number is
fs12-19 john's point is is that i'm
sorry councilman bendo's point is is
that um
the
19va-09 is the product code
of that particular transaction that
identifies
the enforcer rather than the pierce
so we need to make a correction to have
the proper product code
am i that may be the case i guess if
there's a product code for uh if there
may be a contract for
first of all velocity the word this is
the first we're hearing it is so
uh i don't know if there's a contract a
product code for under hgac for a
velocity there might be um but right now
that what
what we've been proposing to buy
contract-wise like i said is is an arrow
so that's where i'm
not getting the connection of the
contracts for an arrow we're buying a
different chassis or truck so will the
contract be adjusted to what we're
actually buying
i think that's the question whatever
we're buying that's what the contract
should say uh that would make sense
yeah so let's just make sure that that
happens
and the other thing
and then the other thing is you know as
part of this
uh
lengthy meeting i had with the the
former fire commissioner
from new york uh we contacted fdny
and just asking if it would be
permissible for the city to piggyback on
their
contracts
because they buy clearly a lot more
equipment than anyone else
and uh the city did say yeah we we could
piggyback on them it goes through the
department of citywide administrative
services councilman bendel can you just
hold off because
commissioner miller is no longer with us
yeah he must have jerk
dropped off well
actually he dropped off i'm trying to
get him reconnected right now hang on
clarify no longer with us on the zoom
please
right this probably has less to do with
him than it does probably
with uh
our the purchasing side of it so what i
would say is that
um the gentleman that you talked to it
would have been nice if he had a
contacted us
and told us before tonight that we could
piggyback on nypd fire the person the
person that i spoke with offered to help
with the selection of the fire truck
and he was told
that his services were not desired
okay but i'm saying the nypd
if i mean the nyfd that if we could have
piggyback on their contract had i known
maybe we would have reached out not
maybe i just found out we would have
reached out
i just found out that's what i'm saying
i you know i
so look i mean like
the gentleman that you talked to i would
like to talk to him um since he said
that he reached out they didn't want his
help
but he was willing to help you
so if you could just pass on the
information to me i will reach out with
to him and i will reach out with uh
commissioner miller and we will talk to
him so we can get a better understanding
um because now we're in the 24th hour
of this
and i would like to hear what he has to
say
you know i have um i have some further
questions before we jump to that to that
point which would have helped build up
to where you are at right now
and um so what you're talking about is
um is process right
so i had some initial questions which
would i would have rather come before
the financing questions here okay i
think we're back
hi okay
i'm just i'm just going to just jump on
focus on some operational questions here
to which will build up to john's point
or some of his points um firematic
um i have i think four questions
um that i'll just rattle off and then if
you could answer um how long how long
have they been our equipment suppliers
number one
um what is that what is their commission
that they get off each purchase
and is that competitive
and and how do we know it's a
competitive commission
and then um
finally
pierce the manufacturer is prominently
featured on um
all over firematic's website so you know
i really like a better understanding of
how long you know we've been dealing
with fire firematic and how do i know
that they're the best supplier and that
we give we get the most com they get the
most you know we get the best rate from
them
yep
when they're when their preferred
supplier is pure right i'm gonna i'm
gonna put chief hawkizer back on he has
that info because they've dealt with
them for a long time
yeah that's that's my point just to let
you know
firematic supply has been in operation
for well over 30 years
we bought our the original committee i
was on in 1988 89
to buy our first ladder truck that i was
involved with was a pierce and firematic
was the dealer
when it comes to fire truck
manufacturers a lot of the
their their local dealers
sell other products so for example
you've heard the term jaws of life which
is a generic term for the hearse tool
they're like a rehearsal dealer so they
don't just sell fire trucks they sell
other equipment as well
so as far as what their commission rates
are
it's it's a moot point because they're
not going to share what they make in
commissions and you cannot buy a pierce
in the metro area except from firematic
supply
yeah so yeah that's exactly my concern
you know if there's only one one game in
town
how do i know it's that way with every
fire truck manufacturer
they get they have a manufacturer's rep
that wraps it for example the truck that
we have now
um came from neville fire apparatus
they had the contract to sell
ferrara
today because ferrara was now bought by
somebody called the rev group
hendrickson fire equipment is now the
dealer so you can't shop
a vehicle
separate from the dealer that's tied to
that contractual area right so
but so but the relevant question here is
i can't we can't
a dealer can't shop we have to go with a
specific dealer
have we shocked the dealer
you can't shop the dealer in the metro
new york area they are the sole dealer
it's like walking into a chevy dealer
and trying to buy a mercedes
okay it's a captive audience and that's
the way it's always been
so we have to go with firematic it's a
monopoly in the in the tri-state if
we're going to get pierced
yes and pharyamatic
correct so the thing is but
why are we getting peers because we deal
with fire
like
are we getting pierced because we've
always dealt with fire medic and that's
the way we've always done things
no yeah let me
try to explain the process
a little more clearly um basically once
we develop the criteria for a vehicle
okay like in this case minimum 100 foot
platform length
um
a lot lower than our current apparatus
because trees in long beach have done
damaged the truck
a few many times you know just for
various criteria and that determined
that okay we wanted to get a midship
ladder tower
we then looked at all the manufacturers
of midship ladder towers that met the
criteria that we set
pierce
was the one that met or exceeded our
criteria and that's when we started
working with firematic to spec the
vehicle
um
one one of the advantages of using
pierce is they are a sole source
manufacturer
um you know
everybody gets a cummins engine but it's
the metal that makes up the truck
pierce makes the chassis
the cab
and the aerial device
whereas our current vehicle which is a
ferrara
the ladder is made by a company called
smeal
so when it comes to problems you
sometimes get that cross finger it's not
my fault problem it's their problem so
what not that this is the overriding
reason but one of the reasons we went
with pierce because they were a sole
source
supplier and more importantly they met
every criteria
for the type of apparatus we were
looking to switch to
okay
john i'll throw it back to you and but i
do have another question after that
thank you commissioner
where are you muted if you're trying to
talk i yeah i have a question on what
was just said if if you don't mind um
you said you started working with
fi-matic to spec the vehicle
and i'm looking at at what you sent us
and thank you commissioner miller um
specifications for 100 uh
foot heavy duty aerial tower and this is
at the time we were talking about bids
and
sealed bids should will be received by
long beach fire department for
furnishing of all necessary labor
equipment and material for the fire
apparatus and then it goes through
147 pages of the specs but when you look
at these specs
they're very very
very specific to a quarter inch of the
type of stuff that you want for example
front tires the front tires shall be
goodyear radios 445-65
22.5 20 ply all position g 256 ms tread
okay the tires shall be mounted on our
cola
22.50 times 13 pounds
this type wheels with 10 stud 11.25 bolt
circles rear axles she'll be a mentor
model rt 52 185 and in other words you
go through this 147 pages and it's very
very specific was so fiomatic helped you
draw these
specifications
when you do do any large scale purchase
i'm an i.t guy i bought millions of
dollars of i.t equipment it's the same
way
once you work with a manufacturer that
you pick
and it is an item that's going out to
bid
they write they give you the specs in
very specific fashion so that really
only but they never say pierce and
you'll never see it but they always put
the specs
in a very specific the only name brand
you'll see are generic components but
it's written in a very specific fashion
on how they manufacture it so that if
joe's fire equipment comes in for
750 thousand dollars which they claim is
the same vehicle and you compare spec to
spec they won't be the same and you
don't have to extend the exceptions
allow you to not
get that lower bid because it's not the
same vehicle so in in other words if
this had gone down to bid nobody else
could have built bid on it except pierce
everybody could have bid on it nobody
would at the specifications except
pearson that's the way it's always
written well well their specifications
are by manufacturer
right
right if we were
like you mentioned kme and i'll be
honest we looked at a kme
before we bought the current truck
not good but if we were to buy a kme we
would have gotten a bid spec
that they wrote with
you know specific to their vehicles so
that pierce couldn't bid on it well let
me rephrase that anybody can bid on it
but pierce wouldn't be able to match
the important specifications that
delineate one manufacturer's vehicle
from another
so putting it out to bid is actually
misnomer because it's already been
decided before it would go out
absolutely and i bet you that happens
with garbage trucks and everything else
so
okay so in in and doing my due diligence
i i got from from fdny
i got two of their uh specification
sheets uh or specifications for ladder
trucks
one was 168 pages the other was 208
pages
fdny developed the specifications and
then sends them out to the vendors for
bids
so well
the fdny uses very specific brands that
will meet their standards and their spec
um they do not can't have a vehicle like
this at all
they do not use ladder towers in the
city of new york they use something
called the tower ladder
i'm not going to get into the specifics
unless you want to know the difference
but they do not use ladder towers they
use tower ladders or they use straight
aerials
that may be true i guess what i'm
getting at is the process clearly is now
the granted they buy a lot more
equipment than we do we buy a fire truck
once every day they have years i get
that
there are there are certain things that
we
couldn't tell peers we want them to do
they may they may do them at an
extremely high price or they may not do
it at all the city of new york with the
volume that they purchased and the
length of their purchase agreement
because if they don't bid each truck
individually um they can dictate terms
to a manufacturer then again you have a
company like pierce who won't bid on the
fdny specs because they don't want to
meet them
all right so it sounds like as a smaller
fire department that
buys much less equipment much less
frequently
we would come up with a more general
criteria
talk to a vendor the vendor says here's
how we here's the equipment that would
close most closely match your needs
and add the necessary whistles and bells
to get you where you need to be
yeah there there is a base vehicle of a
type
and then you go through it with the
dealer um what can what are the options
what can we do with it
you know
so you know i think so this like i'm not
closing but this these have all been
really um really great information very
informative
um i'm you know really appreciate
everyone's time um
so what what's obvious here is that um
because of for many many reasons which
we don't need to get into
it seems like we do not we do not have
an overall fleet maintenance program
for the fire department would you agree
with that
uh
we
while working with the city garage we do
try to keep our uh trucks up to date and
do preventive
for a long-term plan as a sense of
buying new vehicles
there was always something
planned going forward whether it came to
fruition or not through the capital uh
you know plans might not have happened
but they they definitely have had things
that they wanted to do
but again as always it always comes down
to money um
starting here going forward now though
is we are
going to be
being very proactive with planning for
the future
as we've already discussed and when i
mentioned to you originally the uh
one ladder truck now and the other one
is starting to
have issues and we should start planning
for that now and starting now so we will
have
time to decide how and when to replace
it next it's just it's just a little
concerning to me that you know that um
you know when we're looking about at the
big your picture here as a council is
that you know uh we have you know this
need for this one truck and it seems
like a one-off whereas
you know the way the budget is managed
and everything else and the capital plan
it's a multi-year strategic sort of
forward-looking process
which you know you are coming in at the
right at the time when all the questions
are getting asked right and of course
and and so it's like no good deed goes
unpunished here and you're asked you
know and we have someone that's giving
us all this information so
you know you know what i keep thinking
is a fleet
management program and i think of uh
multi-vehicle discounts
you know where we go with one
manufacturer so that we say we can buy
this truck now but
but if you give us a better price we can
buy this engine in a year from now so
give me a better deal where's what i
want to say is that in the past there
has not been any fleet management that's
what we're trying to do
exactly the only thing we can do is go
by where we are right now
and start to try to move forward um and
so
and it's not just for the fire
department it's for every department
that has trucks within the city we need
a good management program because if you
see some of the trucks you wonder you
know how long they'll be run still
running
um and we do have software that does
fleet management so that is being all
the information is being inputted into
that so i guess my my first concern is i
would like to talk um get with
commissioner miller and talk to this
gentleman from
um from the new york fire department
um i want to be able for us to answer
questions and move forward i want the
com i want the residents to feel that
the staff has worked extremely hard
to get to where we are now
and that we are trying to do the best we
can
with the situation that we have and that
we're not trying to overspend money
we're not trying to do anything so i
would really like to talk to this
gentleman with commissioner miller so
that we can get more clarity um
and then if we need to
um when we go we can if you all have
additional questions we can send some
information out if you have additional
questions that you could ask or send us
the questions that we can answer those
questions on monday i just want to thank
you for that donna i just want to point
out that um you know you have been
instrumental um
in making sure that we follow process
um in the city now um with everything
every single thing that we do
and um you know i want to make you clear
that the fire the board of fire
commissioners right
um to me
still needs to be brought into this
process
um because
their power per our charter is it that
they shall have the care custody and
control of all properties belonging to
the fire department so to me our checks
and balances and our process is that i
can go to the board of commissioners
fire commissioners and ask each one of
them are you comfortable with this have
you done the due diligence they're the
ones that should be asking all of these
questions i appreciate there was a truck
committee but that i'd like to see that
truck committee report to the fire board
of commissioners and then the fire board
of commissioners present to uh you know
be part of this conversation tonight so
hopefully you know that could happen um
sooner rather than later and again you
know that um
this uh this gentleman that was a former
uh a commissioner for fdny if he could
um
provide some of his endpoint um it's
always great to have an independent um
perspective on things so um
you know what what i don't really see
the harm there um does anybody on the
council have any other questions or
comments
just what that right i'm sorry john go
ahead no no i was just going to thank
joe and his team for their patience
because like i said
we've been peppering them with a lot of
questions
uh the last week and a half or so and uh
and not easy questions to answer
so uh uh
uh thank you i just hope you guys
understand we're just doing it as part
of our due diligence
to make sure um you know we need to make
sure you get the equipment you need
uh for your guys and but also make sure
we are making sure the taxpayers
interests are represented as well
absolutely i understand completely and i
hope that we were able to answer a lot
of your questions tonight it was
fabulous
it was a great job roy did you have a
comment yeah um and and joe thank you so
much thank you i know we've you know
asked you a lot
donna i guess i i'm
a little uh
i don't
upset or concerned about the bid process
from what i've heard tonight
from what i've heard tonight basically
the bid process is
the vendor gives you the specifications
so that only one person anyone can bid
but only one person can fit the
specifications
and i've often said it it bothers me
that we only seem to get one bid for so
many things only one bid
and you know i thought do we have an
obligation to put something like this
out to bid
you should i mean this happened to be
one item that they wrote the
specifications that what i understood
them to say was that they
went around
they looked at different trucks they
came up with what they wanted and then
the specifications were written but not
all bids are done that way
bids how we do the bid process is that
the team says this is what we want we
come up with our own specifications and
you put it out to be it a lot of times
that one of the reasons we found out
that people in which we changed was only
we would only get one bid was because
there was insurance requirements within
the va and that meant that some
companies would have to get additional
insurance so i asked them to take that
out but but to say that if you were
awarded the bid you would have the
insurance requirement within so many
days of being um
of receiving the bid and that if you
didn't then we would go to the next um
person so that too i think will allow
more people to bid because why would you
buy additional insurance not knowing if
you were going to receive that bid um
also there are people that just
specialize so when we send out bids if
we think that we only got one back
however
we there might be other people for
example the bike share program we put
that bid out at least twice i believe
and we finally got it back on the third
time with additional bidders because we
reached out to other people um
so it all depends but not all bid specs
are not all bid documents are put
together the way they they did in the
fire department but we are doing
everything we can to increase and make
our rfp process better
yeah
i'm sorry yes i just need to make a
clear distinction
this is this was not a bid
this wasn't a normal procurement but
this was a piggy back office
off of an existing contract
if this if this would if this was a bid
i'd probably call a halt to this entire
meeting um
this
was a piggyback off of a contract from
the houston galveston area
right which we piggybacked off of
and directly contacted the vendor to get
the specs from so piggybacking is a way
basically not to have to go through the
bid process
right it's authorized by general
municipal law and as long as the
contract provides that it's
piggybackable we can directly interface
with the vendor to get that
and again as long as we have the process
in place with the checks and the
balances that we can make sure that that
the piggy backing is okay
then we're operating on all you know on
four wheels you know full steam ahead
well
i don't necessarily agree with that
because bidding the purpose of bidding
is to get the best price
um i think the purpose of it you know
this is what you know this is why it's
you know
again this is why i am not in government
i don't i am not an expert on purchasing
um
large fire department trucks nor pencils
or paper
or anything else in the government
system everything there's different
levels and different criteria of
purchasing and i would must say that
vehicles like this
are unique and have their own set of
rules which may be different than your
regular standard um purchasing but this
is a learning opportunity for all of us
and i think that's what what's happening
here and we're that means but that means
that we're getting to the best decision
so i want to thank everybody um is there
anything else
okay again thank you commissioner miller
thank you and uh the truck committee
um have a good weekend stay safe out
there
um with the impending snowstorm and i
will see you on february 1st for the
city council meeting
thank you have a good night